Thoughts on the new Gearbox changes for stick-sequentials

To begin with I want to start by pointing out that I've been pretty vocal about wanting this gearbox model to be updated, so I am entirely extatic that we actually got them changed. However as it stands currently there's a few major issues, hopefully these can be addressed swiftly and easily.

With the current gearbox model that now exists on ST, WTCC and GT1/2 cars these no longer automatically clutch or blip the throttle. This is accurate behaviour to my knowledge at least for the Super Touring and the GT1 and 2 cars. This behaviour is thus perfect.

However, it would seem like the devs did not implement the automatic throttle-cut that these cars had while upshifting. Both the ST and the GT1 and 2 cars of the 2000s featured an automatic throttle cut by the ECU when upshifting, in order to allow the user to flat shift. On Super Touring cars this was codified in the ruleset by the 1998 season, but some cars if we go by on-board footage seem to have had this since the 96 seasons already, if not earlier. In the current model this doesn't exist and these cars can't be flatshifted - one has to release the throttle and even clutch the car on upshift for a quick upshift. This isn't correct.

Moreover it seems that the gearbox model doesn't properly take into account that these are dogboxes and not synchro boxes - clutchless downshifting damages the transmission the same way that it does on the synchro h-pattern boxes in some of the other categories. Clutchless up-shifting requires too strict of a timing currently and can't be done on full engine torque.

Of course, clutchless downshifts can damage dogboxes irl too, but particularly Super Touring and WTCC gearboxes were very well refined and the overall lower torque output of these engines means that they were downshifted without the clutch irl and there were no issues with the damage being significant over the course of a single race. Currently thus the behaviour in-game is wrong, the damage shouldn't build up on these.

GT1 and 2 cars however were clutched on downshifts irl. I'm less sure why this is - potentially dealing with the higher torque outputs on these engines put more strain on the gearbox if it was downshifted without a clutch. I see personally no problem with keeping them in their current iteration, which forces clutch use, accurate to their real driving styles.

Lastly WTCC might have already begun to incorporate automatic throttle blip by the TC1 era - I am not too sure about this though but it might be taken into consideration.

In conclusion, I absolutely love the feeling of downshifting the Super Touring and GT1 and 2 cars as it stands right now but the Super Tourers in particular need to have no damage on clutchless downshifts, and all of the categories need to allow for quick flat upshifts - perhaps by forcing autoclutch on just for the upshifts in the game?

 

I also think the current gearbox model isn't accurate. It’s quite fun, but it doesn't seem right.
I imagine the vast majority of players will use the automatic clutch, especially online. That doesn't seem very fair.

 

Allie wrote:
<<On Super Touring cars this was codified in the ruleset by the 1998 season, but some cars if we go by on-board footage seem to have had this since the 96 seasons already, if not earlier. In the current model this doesn't exist and these cars can't be flatshifted - one has to release the throttle and even clutch the car on upshift for a quick upshift. This isn't correct.>>

<<Moreover it seems that the gearbox model doesn't properly take into account that these are dogboxes and not synchro boxes - clutchless downshifting damages the transmission the same way that it does on the synchro h-pattern boxes in some of the other categories. Clutchless up-shifting requires too strict of a timing currently and can't be done on full engine torque.>>

Exactly! Thank you, well put. After the last update it is such a bummer to have to release the throttle fully (100 pct completely) to upshift a gear in the Super Tourers. Its pretty difficult to keep up momentum and torque in a race while doing this. Don't believe from what I have read about the BTCC Super Tourer series that this is accurate. All these cars in other SIMS do not require this and are they all wrong? (VRC in AC, etc.). For me the new gearbox requirements have taken a lot of fun out of what had been my favorite cars in RRE- the Super Tourers.

 

As far as I'm concerned, this has completely ruined the game. For players who use a clutch and gear shifter, it has become useless. It’s a shame, as this game has always been very important to me. Now that it finally has great graphics and a modern HUD, you’re limited to driving the usual GT3 cars at Spa, just like in every other simulator.
There are technical reasons that are complex to explain (every race car operates differently), but the obvious point is that a racing sequential gearbox should offer an advantage over a standard road-car H-pattern shifter, not a hindrance. This new sequential model is significantly slower than the H-pattern shifter, and even that wasn't particularly realistic to begin with.
The Supertouring cars are completely ruined, but the WTCC TC1 cars, one of my favorite categories, are even worse off. This mechanical sequential gearbox model absolutely needs to be fixed. I really appreciate the effort put into introducing this new feature, but it would be better to take a step back.

 

Again, well put. SIM racing is supposed to be fun, and ultimately how realistic is it REALLY, anyways. I loved the Super Tourers, it was the one car group for me that Raceroom really shined. But the new gearbox setup has seemed to indeed ruin those cars as far as fun to drive is concerned. It would be such a pain to race them now I wouldn't even try. Overall really like Raceroom and not trying to be too negative just trying to provide feedback to the DEVS. Was looking forward greatly to the new cars coming, especially Mondeo, now am not even sure I will buy them. Really too bad this happended.

 

Citroen C-Elysee WTCC 2016 onboard camera Yvan Muller, note the left foot breaking.

 

Thought it was a bug. Had to activate 'automatic clutch' for the e.g. Mazda Cup car.

So how am I supposed/threatened to shift all the sequential gearbox driven cars?
I'm using both an H-Shift and a Sequential Stick.

 

This is onboard footage from a 1994 Renault Laguna. You can't see the driver's feet, but the gear changes are lightning-fast, especially when upshifting.



This is a GT1 car being driven today; the driver upshifts without the clutch and uses the clutch and heel-and-toe technique to downshift. You’ll also notice a small lever beneath the gear knob, a feature found on many cars from that era.

 

they just trying to make it more complex because it was just too simple compared to h-patterns and it's nice that they do that but in the same time they again implemented something that is half-baked
in reality if u will set auto clutch and blip for sequential cars it just works as it worked before update so I guess do that and wait for further improvements

if u also have and use h-pattern in cars that allows it then u probably will need to go to the main menu and adjust that setting if u will decide to use it

 

The settings are: R3Es decides the cars gearbox that's in real life.
Don't know what more I have to change than to use auto clutch which is not realistic.

Sequential shifting is bugged with a strange sound of misshifts even in neutral although clutch pedal is used.
Just to be clear with my settings pedal shifted cars do work with pedals only. H-shifted cars with the h-shift/clutch and sequential cars demand my sequential stick only. ONLY the sequential gearboxed cars show this persisting gearbox damage sounds.

Really don't want to use this arcade settings so what should I do?

 

with auto clutch and blip it will literally make affected cars behave the same as they did before that update so not sure what u talking about, it wasn't an issue before u enjoyed it but now suddenly it's a problem when it will works the same way

for h-patterns if u know the list of cars that use it and u know that u will use one just jump into settings and change that setting from auto clutch + blip to manual I guess

like I said, maybe annoying if u like to jump between different type of cars often but that's the solution for now

 

I disagree. In my opinion, it is quite a serious issue when a simulator fails to replicate the actual operation of the car.
It is perfectly clear that everyone plays how and in whatever mode they choose; personally, I will never use automatic clutch or auto-blipping, though anyone else is free to do so.
Before this update, the issue—though hardly anyone complained about it, as it was a minor one—concerned cars with H-pattern gearboxes.
Almost all race cars with H-pattern gearboxes use dog-engagement racing gearsets and do not require the use of the clutch. Drivers did use it, of course, but the operation wasn't nearly as strict as it is in RaceRoom; the system was very forgiving of minor errors.
Keep in mind that the further back in time you go, the more drivers tended to brake with their right foot. Even today, some of the older active drivers still brake with their right foot.
Left-foot braking is a relatively recent practice. When Rubens Barrichello was Schumacher's teammate, he braked with his right foot, whereas Michael had already installed pedal guards to prevent his feet from slipping onto the wrong pedal.
The engagement dogs are widely spaced and triangular in shape. On one side, they facilitate gear engagement, while on the other, they act like a hook, holding the gear in place to handle the torque. The gear always engages. As the dogs wear down, the gear still engages, but eventually—when acceleration increases the torque—the worn dog slips, the gear is "spat out," and the car drops into neutral.
The mechanical sequential gearbox, on the other hand, was simulated quite well—and, in any case, just like in all other simulators. Let's just say there was no difference between the mechanical and electronic gearboxes. While electronic gearboxes have plenty of safeguards, mechanical ones often lack them and run the risk of breaking. Furthermore, a mechanical gearbox should be slightly slower and rougher than an electronic one, carrying a higher risk of locking up the rear wheels. This difference is never simulated. All in all, though, the operation was correct—there is no need to use the clutch—and frankly, I don't understand why they introduced this completely unrealistic feature.
If they want to differentiate the electronic gearbox from the mechanical one, this isn't the way to do it; after all, every car operates differently—they aren't all the same.

 

"The sequential stick shifter gearbox we added on the 4th behaved more strictly than the real thing. With a manual clutch you now only need the clutch to pull away, not between shifts, and you no longer have to hold the brake or lift off the throttle to select a gear."
- from recent patch notes...

 

Are there any cars in Raceroom that required using clutch on downshifts IRL? Because the patchnotes suggest that such behavior is not simulated.

 

Aside from other issues that have me currently sidelined, I don't have a stand alone sequential shifter. Trying to clutch and use paddles feels wrong. I switched to the auto-clutch option and I am going to stay there until I get a good sequential shifter. And no, my TH8A isn't a good sequential shifter. It'll do the job (just barely) but changing from H-pattern to sequential is a pain in the taint. I'll get a good multi-tasking shifter like the SHH or grab an Oktane shifter or something.

 

It’s no longer necessary; it looks like they’ve fixed the game. Now, the clutch only needs to be used for starting off, not for changing gears.
They’ve also added some interesting new features to the HUD. I haven’t had time to properly test it out yet, but it looks fantastic.

 

Yes GT1s are driven like that IRL, it seems that the current patch reverted things back to how it used to be which is fine for Super Tourers but is now again inaccurate for GT1s.

Hopefully in the future we get some tweaks where some cars, like the GT1 category, can be flatshifted up but still need to be blipped (and if not in the correct rev range - clutched) while shifting down. Super Tourers can stay as is, though they were manually throttle blipped irl as far as I know, so I don't mind if that gets tweaked slightly too. MX-5 Cup cars also need manual throttle blip on downshifts irl.

I have faith the devs will continue to refine these gearbox behaviours.

 

However, this car is 26 years old. It is perfectly normal for it to be driven more responsibly these days. Maintenance is expensive, and it no longer competes in a top-tier racing championship that offers significant financial returns.
I think the electronics make the difference: if the car has power cut and auto-blip, using the clutch is pointless. If the car lacks electronic aids, using the clutch isn't mandatory, though it might be preferable as it helps avoid mistakes.
I don't know if the developers will read this, but in my opinion, they should simply remove the aids from cars that didn't originally have them.

 

I’ve been away from this sim for a while and was very surprised I now have to use the clutch to pull away in the super tourers. Awesome stuff!
DTM ’95 and ’02 next, please?