Here my findings on that : GTR3 AMG SLS 600BHP @ 1405kg incl.Driver vs. GT Masters AMG GT3 590BHP @ 1390kg i.D. = GTR3 SLS 0.43BHP/Kg vs. GT Masters AMG 0.42 BHP/Kg I wouldn't call that weaker, no ? Some more : AMG GT3 in GTR3 : 590 BHP@1390kg AMG GT Masters 590BHP@1390Kg = identical MB AMG GT3 Evo in GT Masters 585BHP @ 1390Kg = identical to GT Masters non-Evo " weaker the GTR3... Porsche 911 GT3 R = 570 BHP @1345kg Porsche 911 GT3 GT Masters 570BHP@1345Kg = identical BMW M6 GTR3 590BHP@1395kg BMW M6 GT3 GT Masters 590BHP@1395kg = identical I could go on for Audi, Bentley, Corvette. GT Masters cars are, according to R3E Shop Info identical or weaker than GTR3...or the other way around..some GTR3 cars are even stronger... Despite GT Master (2020) cars and drivers seem to be a good deal faster. So pleaze show evidence that GTR3s are weaker then their GT Master counterparts as you stated. My assumption , unless proven wrong otherwise, stays the same: GT Masters cars are similar or weaker, but their drivers in R3E have probably a higher base rating on which Adaptive is calculated.. Also: having checked each single car and team in GT Masters 2020 vs. GTR3, there are only less then a handfull identical teams/cars ( not car types ) in both groups. So the difference in performance can, imho, only be attributed to different AI driverskills. As I usr adaptive, there is no common skilllevel, I would assume.. Will test this more thoroughly so. regards Stefan
I don't think so. I remember a thread about how Koenigsegg AIs were 1-2 seconds faster than any other car in GTR1.
Hmm, one would need to do a single player race in group 5 on a track with a long straight to check that out and also to see if they are using base setup as some will hit the rev limiter on standard setup. Regarding shop performance data for the GTR3s, that´s not really valid as the cars have been BOP´d so stuff like aero drag and torque come into play too.
I don't know how AI driver skills work, but I can imagine that can be a reason too. Anyway, comparing power-to-weight doesn't make a lot of sense because: 1) we're doing circuit racing not drag racing; 2) weight and/or power figures changed many times after all the balance changes, but the numbers in the store stay the same. They can be used as a suggestion, but not a proof. They suggest that these cars shouldn't be that far off each other - and that's true. Doesn't mean that they all run the same laptimes, though. Cars that are present both in GTM and GTR3, are identical. BMW M6 car is the same, be it from GTM 2018, GTM 2020 or GTR3. What I was talking about is that cars that are present in GTM in the last couple of years (these are: Audi R8 LMS, BMW M6, Corvette C7, Mercedes AMG, Porsche 911 R) happen to be the most balanced between each other and they are also faster than older cars. At least that's my strong impression, I don't remember seeing any old car to be a real competition for newer cars. Maybe they aren't slower but people prefer newer cars for their handling. I'd actually be very happy if somebody can prove that the older cars on average run the same laptimes as the newer ones, but it doesn't look like that to me. I also don't know where the Evo cars are. For example Bentley Evo, when first introduced a couple of months ago, was slower than competition and saw quite a good buff in a subsequent update. I think it's possible they still have some disbalance in performance.
@Maskerader : thanks for giving my thoughts some more focused direction. I will certainly dive a little deeper into some of the issues at hand. My main question, why are AI GTM 2020 cars so much faster then AI GTR3, remains open. The difference is significant enough. So much, that I am at the last position of a 30+ field on GTM, while I am on 5-8. on a similar sized GTR3 field with the majority of cars being Audi R8, AMG GT3, Porsche 911, BMW M6. At the same time, I use an AMG GT3 in both races/Groups....same track and same conditions, of course... Will go through some further ingame checks and testing tomorrow. The reason for all of this is my intension to setup a custom global championship ( 18 - 20 Tracks ) and I want to include a certain set of GT cars , derived from the GTM and GTR3 rooster. Now this would be a bit single sided if one part of GT3 cars are on purpose more competitive then others of the same built.
Cars are identical across adac packs and gtr3. So an SLS for example is exactly the same car in ADAC and GTR3. AI drivers have different attributes which may make them faster or slower, each driver has his own skillset.
Well, I haven't found any info on that in the sim, but this response would match my initial assumption...and it would mean, that I have not only have to look at the cars themselves but also their drivers when assembling a reasonable field of teams / championship rooster.
Are there not enough cars in gtr3 without needing the ADAC cars. I often run the older ADAC pack on AI but only use those cars for authenticity. I cant see any reason to mix them for single player racing.
Well, I think it is up to me how I create my custom championships. Hence I pick what I think fits. Also, if GTM offers stronger drivers, I have to take that into consideration. On a per car basis, there are very few overlaps between the two groups. Take out the Japanese and US Teams which never raced in Europe. Well as GT cars are not my only interest and I came across these findings, I wanted to know more. Very simple. We don't have the same situation in other series though, especially not in the formula series.
They are not. What you saw was most likely because of how adaptive AI adapted to your driving. ("They're separate classes, so they use separate AI levels." (c)) I tested it at fixed AI and there was no significant difference in speed, if any; top guys showed the same time down to a couple of tenths. I ran a field of GTM2020, 30 cars. And a field of GTR3 cars - Audi R8 Evo, BMW M6, Corvette C7, Mercedes AMG, Porsche 911 R - also 30 cars. I think you can help adaptive AI learn your pace through a particular application: https://forum.sector3studios.com/index.php?threads/adaptive-ai-the-tool-how-to.12888/ Or do a few more races with GTM2020 and hope it gets balanced to your times.
I just think the strategy of releasing the same cars in different bundles or re-bundle the same cars but under different years, is a bad and confusing practice IMHO. Just release the cars, forget about the series if they are identical.
It can be confusing, but there are different liveries and no mechanics to put the same livery in two different classes.
Well I checked the different Packs of GTM 2020 vs. GTR3 (309 Liveries ! ) and there were only a few teams identical in both. Actually, I think only the AMG Montaplast Team cars...What I found was somes same cars and their #'s within a Group/Team but a slightly different Sponsoring. Zakspeed AMGs show that.
Now that was very helpful for me. I am very much in favour of the Adaptive AI. Will dosome more complete sessions ( Q and R) on different tracks to help the AI ( and myself) getting better trained.
Confusing is certainly a good way to define RRE as we know from the micropayments, VRP and same cars in different classes. I wish it would be simplified but it seems to be getting worse now we have GTR2s and GT2s too not to mention the 911 GT3 cup car as well as ADAC and GT3R variants. If the shop were a car delaership it would have both the salespeople and customers in a mess and many would end up noy buying anything as there is too much choice!
Well, in general I had no problem at all with the shop and the paymenty etc. I bought everything at once for a good price and got my vrps through steam...and I can understand S3 very well. There are people who are interested in specific cars and even in the cars of specific teams and only certain tracks. I know of teams who only drive 24hr endurance and only on the NordS, two or three times a year. One needs countless hrs. to really master the NordS, so it's worth focussing on.... If I i.e. want to race only the AMG Evo online with the Knaus Livery, I wouldn't care ( and pay ) for all the rest of GTR3s in general in the other AMG Evos in particular. Same goes with all the other Series. If I am not interested in tin roofed cars, but only real racers ( open wheelers, single seats ), why would I pay for all the rest....Think of it like a collection. You can collect only what you need or complete series and seasons....in this respect, R3E caters the needs and interests of many sim racers. I like to switch a lot between cars and series. So I have the whole package. I like also GTM and grew up with DTM...so I am happy to have a sim offering all this in one great package. To be quite frank, aside from R3E, I own rfactor 1+2, AC ( and tons of mods of varying quality for all three ), ACC, GTR2 and AMS2. Each of them offers a bit of what I want. None offers the allround package in all aspects. Not everyone is a great skin-artist or calculates that the community will somehow offer the mods needed for a specific car / livery. On top, this systems allows the potential buyer to testrun a specific car on a specific track before purchasing it. I don't know of any other sim offering that. And S3s pricing is rather fair compared to others. If it's just for the fun, you could get away with playing the sim completely for free....of course, this degree of freedom comes at the, small, price of a modestly more complicated purchasing system...I for my part can live with that. What I would really like to see is simply more technical info on the cars and the teams within R3E.