Something has to change in ranked MP - this is'nt fun anymore.

Developers of Gran Turismo Sport use AI for their penalty system. We might think with the amount of resources they have they'd make a nearly perfect system by now, right? But no, it's quite an adventure. There was a period when penalties worked okay but then they kept getting worse and worse for whatever reason. The system got so bad that recently the devs drastically reduced its sensitivity to collisions, meaning you have to hit someone really hard for the system to react to it, otherwise nothing happens.

 

OK, but then the model is at fault not the AI (crap in - crap out). DLSS first implemetation was terrible and everyone hated it, DLSS 2.0 is praised and everyone loves it.

I get Sector3 doesnt have Nvidia type bank ballance though...

 

I'm not sure DLSS is a good example. I can't say for sure, but I feel these are pretty different problems to solve.

 

I have no clue what's the reason behind it, I just think that if a studio with 170 people, backed by a tech giant, can't even make a decent model to work with, what's the probability for Sector 3 to be more successful?

 

This is why you pay a premium for iRacing. You can protest and it is viewed by a human. I quit R3E ranked racing. It was worse than the public lobbies. At least in the public lobbies you can shrug it off and move on, or rage quit with no penalties.

Leagues are your only solution at this time. Human intervention is required.

 

Here is part of the problem , very defensive driver , maybe just let them go by ?

Andi

 

Think he means defensive driving as an opposite to driving aggressively. So id assume early on he doesnt defend a lot, gives others plenty of space, expects others to go for risky moves and is prepared to avoid those moves resulting in major trouble and so on

 

We did for months and we ended up seeing too many cases were the system could be tricked and/or made the wrong call.

No. You're naturally thinking in terms of wrong and right, fault and blame. The current system doesn't do that, there is no culprit or victim in its logic. It sees a collision and treats both involved parties the same. In that sense (and maybe only in that sense) it is fairer than a system that tries to put the blame on either party and fails.

With the current logic at the very least you as the victim know that the other player also got some points.
Imagine there's a blaming system and you know that one of two players involved in a collision gets away with no points. Now imagine you get hit without doing anything wrong but for whatever reason the system assigns you points, which means the guy who rammed you drove away with zero points. Are you sure you'd prefer that? I for one think this would be even more unfair than what we currently have.

EDIT: And while 99% might sound good it means that one in a hundred decisions is wrong. On a populated server you can get dozens of incidents in one race. So even a 99% accurate system would produce a false positive in every 2nd or 3rd race.

 

there is blame in the current system it just blames both equally. iv been pushed off the road a few times on purpouse and iv even done it to someone before... i know they got more points than i did for ramming them off the road. because they got contact and then track limit violation, so in a way it blames the victim more than the perp.

Another example is in a recent race where i literally breathed a small breath on the guys bumper in front, it didnt affect either of our race/pace/damage or even really notice it happened, we both got 4 points. why? we both agreed it shouldnt have been penalised, but especially the guy in front getting 4!

I also dont understand why you get incident points for going off track in a place thats totally irrelevant to your time or position, like going straight on into a hairpins outside gravel trap because u made a mistake.... like you went off the track and lost 2-3 places, dirtied your tires, got stick in gravel and on top of that you get a penalty for what? you gained nothing it was a mistake.

Cutting corners on the inside and going wide on exit curbs fair enough, you gain something there.

I sound like im complaining and i guess i am, but im really ok with it, its workable but its just frustrating and annoying sometimes

ok, so thats it or keep trying , fresh idea fresh people and minds to look at it, different angle? , i know theres a million other things on the table and bidgets and people want everything. just askin are you done or gonna keep workin at it?

 

I think in these terms because we're discussing a system that's made for penalizing unwanted behaviour through a set of rules - and that's, quite literally, the definition of law. "Law is a system of rules created and enforced through social or governmental institutions to regulate behavior" (from Wikipedia).

Yes, in the eyes of the current system there are no victims, there are only people who abide the rule "do not have contacts" (i.e. lawful drivers) and people who don't (i.e. culprits). That, however, is not enough to call it fair in the sense people use this word here. Even? Yes. Fair? I suspect most people agree that's it's often unfair.

And this just gets us back to what I said before. If both systems can't achieve 100% fairness, you can still choose between them by looking at which system is fair in more cases than the other.

I don't have the exact numbers, so let's just have an example. If only half of contacts are racing incidents where both parties share the same blame, we're left with 50% cases where the current system penalizes the victim, and the only justification for that is that the system also achieves 100% accuracy in penalizing the culprit. Does it look better than a system from your example that gets it right in 99% cases? To me it certainly doesn't. Especially seeing how the current system can also be exploited...

I'm not saying the devs must change the system, or if it's easy to make a better system, or if it's even possible for a small studio; I'm just saying that your argumentation doesn't convince me.

 

Yes, Nico is right. Deepl says "reserved and cautious" might be the better adjective.

 

Agree with topic starter. Penalty counting is very bad. Always existing few idiots who hit everyone.
Speed compare at impact moment will help with it. This solution is not ideal but much better than today's situation.

Solution 1:
Simple rule - collision point get the player who has more speed at impact moment.

Solution 2:
Also can be useful post-race voting system or like/dislike system. After the race players may vote for rating + or - for desired players.

 

And if the person going faster is behind and the person in front brake checks the one behind? Your simple rule is then not so simple is it.

 

AI judge could work, given AI makes decisions based on confidence values, similar to human judges.
The problem is it's all about statistics (experience), you need to train it a lot. DLSS can be trained as it's relatively easy to provide the "correct solution" in an automated way. An AI judge would have to learn from lots of races judged well by lots of humans.

Whether someone makes an honest mistake (missed break point as not so consistent) or is maliciously gaming the system, would need to know that players behavior over many races.

Once so much races are involved, one can argue that a simple system like today's would also work statistically out somehow. Yes you will have those bad races but over a long period of time, it should smooth out. It's just that we humans don't tend to have the patience for it.

And as someone said having a fallback to a human for protests just is really good but obviously costs money, that isn't there. Leagues are always the best option then, but also means more commitment by player / less easy pick up races.

There is also a more controversial decision that can be made: in absence of judges should the game actively try to prevent more incidents (ghosting until car has safely rejoined etc) less realism because there is no realistic judge...

 

so you think unpunished morons - better choice?

I can't see other technically possible solutions except described early. .... or all players will drive fair - about this here:
https://www.netflix.com/ru/browse/genre/1492

 

Solution 1 never works
I was one of the ppl that spent individually over 100 hrs driving and trying to teach and trick ai

Examples wefe solution 1 doesnt work
Brake checking
Someone unsafely joining the track
Someone waiting to drive into
Car spinning
Your overtaking in th s's and the other car loses control

Solution 2 ,
Doesnt work ,
Billy no mates and his fellow idiots decide the fastest drivers need a lesson , so they spam vote hi down , much like the vote to kick ppl option that was in race 07 , it will get massively abused

If you think the Devs and testers are sitting on there hands and doing nothing then your wrong , always testing and trying to get better solutions

If ppl behave like idiots , report them , add a video , and if needed they will get banned

Andi

 

I think the biggest problem with the current penalty system is in relation to the WTCR or WTCC cars, because as they are slower in the dispute for positions the contact between the cars ends up happening.

I have been running in the ranks today and I have enjoyed it, of course we are always upset when someone touches us and takes us out of the race, but as it is no championship so it is possible to recover the score afterwards.

 

In other sims you improve your "safety rating", racing close to other cars without incidents. In other words you've to show you can drive in the pack safely (pcars2 and ACC for example but they have their own problems too).

 

IDK, a lot of contacts in Tatuus too. They make very unsafe moves with contact and they block you very badly when you try to pass. If you try to play safe and you try only to keep your position, the car behind bumps in to you every corner. At the end a lot of contacts even trying to be a clean driver. Frustrating , but I don't think there's an easy solution.

 

I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just trying to explain the reasons why the system works the way it does. A reminder:

Nobody is saying that the current system is the be-all end-all in reputation scoring. It isn't. But compared to what we had in testing it's the less unfair solution, because of those borderline cases Andi and I mentioned. Which should also answer the question of whether this is it. When there's time to work on this and some reasonable suggestions on the table, the devs will always have an open ear and try to improve things. We (testers) are regularly discussing ranked results and the mechanics behind them with the devs and point out things that might be improved. We just talked about some aspects in the past few days, again.

There's been several comments that have the same undertone to them, so I'm just using this quote as one example of many.

I think there's more than one way of looking at the reputation score and incident points. You describe them as a punishment or penalty. Unlike normal penalties, an incident point has no direct negative consequences. It's just a counter of things that happened which shouldn't happen under normal circumstances. This is also why you get incident points for leaving the track. I see it as a rating of a drivers on-track security and reliability. Leaving the track, even if you don't put anyone else in danger or gain anything from it, is still sth that cannot be regarded as safe and reliable. Do that too many times irl and you won't keep your team seat (or racing license) for long.

Taking what pierredietze wrote earlier in this thread, he did get 30 incident points in one race (let's ignore the debate whether those were justified). But how did it impact his reputation? Apparently he finished the race and came out of it with a -0.2. I don't quite see why this is regarded as a problem by some.

In my personal opinion people shouldn't care too much about optimising their reputation score. Yes, it is used to make the cut for entering certain events or servers but overall it's really not that important. As long as you race normally you will have a reputation score that allows you to enter every server you wish and it doesn't really make a difference if you have a rep of 85 or 99.